November 09, 2021 • Paul Rodden • Season: 2021 • Episode: SIS02
Welcome to The Hydrogen Podcast!
Special Interview Series - THP02: Matt Murdock (CEO of Raven SR) discusses his modular waste to hydrogen process and how he is able to create hydrogen and eliminate landfill waste. This interview is packed with incredible insights on the current state of the hydrogen industry and I highly recommend giving this interview a listen. Also, Investors need to pay attention as well as Raven SR is about to go through another round of funding and you should judge this opportunity for yourself.
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Paul Rodden 0:00
Thanks for joining me today on today's hydrogen podcast with me is Matt Murdock founder and CEO of Raven SR. Raven SR is revolutionizing the way the world uses waste. They take any organic waste and convert it to clean hydrogen and synthetic Fischer–Tropsch's fuels through their patented steam co2 reforming process.
[So the big questions in the energy industry today are, how is hydrogen the primary driving force behind the evolution of energy? Where is capital being deployed for hydrogen projects globally? And where are the best investment opportunities for early adopters who recognize the importance of hydrogen? I will address the critical issues and give you the information you need to deploy capital. Those are the questions that will unlock the potential of hydrogen. And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Paul Rodden, and welcome to the hydrogen podcast.]
Okay, welcome back. Today I'm joined by Matt Murdock, the founder and CEO of Raven SR. Matt's an experienced leader in oil and gas and energy. And he holds a degree in economics and government from Georgetown University and capitalizing on a strong operations background is positioning Raven SR to have a global impact on waste management. Welcome, Matt. It is great to have you here.
Matt Murdock 1:22
Paul, it is a pleasure to see you again. Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Paul Rodden 1:26
Absolutely. So to start off, can you tell us a little bit about your background? What led you to start Raven SR and what your company specializes in?
Matt Murdock 1:36
Yeah. It's interesting, because the background goes back so much further, I think I've talked to you before. And my great great grandfather actually was the inventor of the the steam power tractor, which is on this wall behind me in California, and eventually became Caterpillar Incorporated. We moved on. And my own background is, you know, I lived in Africa for nearly 20 years doing development and projects there, came back here to Wyoming got involved in oil and gas. And Dr. Galloway was my second cousin contacted me and said, you know, why are we converting all that flared gas to fuels? And I said, What are you talking about? And he, you know, he got to talking and I said, this sounds amazing. And his focus has always really been mostly on eliminating waste kind of as a waste management perspective sitting in Wyoming sitting here, you know, what the oil and gas industry and fuels focused I said man, we can move this into a new direction. And so he started to and one thing led to another, and eventually, in 2018, we purchased all of his assets. And Burt bought the company, he was kind of getting to the point where he was ready to move on. And so we purchased the assets and created right on at that point, and it's just been slowly slow going, but cooking in the background and getting traction now.
Paul Rodden 2:53
That's so great. Yeah, I remember you telling me about your was it your great great grandfather?
Matt Murdock 2:58
Paul Rodden 2:59
Turning up Caterpillar, and how just that has continued on to be this innovative family line. Really? It's amazing. So in 2018, you purchase all the assets from Galloway's company, you've created Raven SR, you've got your patented process. Can you give us kind of a just a quick overview of the process of producing hydrogen from waste? And can you talk about your specific methodology for the clean energy that you're creating? Again, not giving away any any secret sauce here, but just kind of that that high 30,000 foot overview?
Matt Murdock 3:36
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Dr. Galloway began this, you know, as I said, back in the 1990s, that had several commercial systems, and it was primarily just kind of a green alternative to incineration. As we know with incineration and combustion processes that involve oxygen in any part of the process. There's going to be pollutants particulate matters, Knox's and sox's. And it's just all so inefficient, right because you're burning, if you will, part of your feedstock to generate some of that heat. Right? Dr. Galloway is very big on the environment. They are very big on what's really good engineering and good engineering should be efficient. So we design this process of co2 reforming, where we actually use the steam and co2 is low atmospheric, we exclude oxygen from the process. It's reductive chemistry. We break up the feedstock and put it into our first stage reformer and then over a period of time it does gasify become, you know, we break up the solids into kind of a raw syn gas, that raw syn gas then goes and gets polished in our second reformer, and by the time we're done in our second reformer, prior to water gas shift prior to any other processes, we're already at about 60% hydrogen that's syn gas. So you know, as I tell people, we make syn gas really well. We make a really good syn gas, which is a building block that you can then use for Fischer–Tropsch fuels, hydrogen methanation You know, there's so many different directions you can take from that syn gas. But we, you know, we focus on doing that through a non combustion process. We don't use catalysts, we operate in a low atmosphere. And it gives us the ability to the takes a little bit longer, maybe on the Cooking side, but it gives us the ability to get a really high quality, syn gas in a way that is awesome for the environment.
Paul Rodden 5:22
And, you know, I love that when, when I was really starting to dive into the hydrogen market, I had no idea what you know, I had heard Syngas before from being an oil and gas. But the Fischer–Tropsch's part of that I had never heard of before. And it's blowing my mind to learn more about what that actually is. It's what correct me if I'm wrong, it is it's lighter, and more energy dense than traditional fuels.
Matt Murdock 5:51
Because the syn gas, you know, we're looking at, for example, so if you look at the syn gas, and that's syn gas, that's primarily hydrogen and about carbon monoxide. And so it's not a synthetic fuel to be really clear, which then goes into the Fischer–Tropsch's reactor or the water gas shift, depending on if you're going to go to renewable diesel or sustainable aviation fuel, or in hydrogen, that syn gas is good at building block. But when you go into the Fischer–Tropsch reaction, and you develop your synthetic fuels, that way, it is lighter, it's got more energy to the molecule, it's much cleaner, you have no sulphurs talking about sulfur free, it burns cleaner. So it's a really as a as a synthetic fuel. It's really superior, which is one of the reasons why we see governments around the world and groups going into sustainable aviation fuel, because we're trying to find ways that we can have a lighter fuel with more power, that's cleaner. And it it's a great product.
Paul Rodden 6:48
You know, what, what makes it even even more amazing, really, is the fact that you're taking your feedstocks waste. Yeah. So to be able to create such a clean fuel, and even furthermore, into the hydrogen space to but to take it from waste, I think is really what makes what separates this new hydrogen generation from any of the other transitions in history. Yeah, yes, eliminating waste.
Matt Murdock 7:15
People have been working on it for a long time, you know, and we're still perfecting and getting better and better. So it's, you know, it's a, it's an uphill battle. But I mean, waste is messy. It really is, I mean, the number of organic compounds and chemicals that can be found, you know, is there a bowling ball in there? Is there a mattress in there, you know, there's so many things on MSW or waste in general that really make it messy. So you know, we we can process, you know, the nice thing about Galloway's processes, he developed it, so we can work with pretty much any carbonaceous waste. So as I tell people, you know, we can process that Chinese takeaway meal with the styrofoam container and the plastic fork and the Biogenics, all at the same time, we don't have to separate it out. And that gives us an ability to, and then the other part of the chemistry that we operate, it gives us that ability to be a little bit more fleet and handle different compounds that other processes haven't been able to.
Paul Rodden 8:08
So speaking of that, then what's what is your view then on the economics of the waste to hydrogen model?
Matt Murdock 8:15
I think it's a great one. I mean, especially, you know, when you're looking at a system that you know, people consider a waste, I'm afraid of the day when people started well isn't the waste could actually be something that's an asset. You know, don't tell you don't tell your listeners, because I mean, you know, when we can have the ability to still go into a landfill, take their waste, and convert it into a fuel and literally solve two problems at the same time, both cleaning up on the landfill site and producing the clean fuel is great. And you know, we are a non combustion process. But if you think about it, we can now site ourselves already in an industrial location. So permitting is easier and everybody has waste everywhere. So we can work on providing local fuels in a local area without having to transport the fuel really long distance, because, you know, every major city has a landfill. So we could actually produce fuel locally off of the waste from that very community and then feed into the market, which you know, decarbonizing the economy further, provides less expensive fuel creates jobs. So there's a lot of advantages to it that I think are going to be explored further and further as time comes on.
Paul Rodden 9:24
I don't know if you heard one of the recent podcasts that I did, but I was talking with just an investor who had sent in a question online, and he kind of just the first part, his question just said, Why, why are we, you know, trying to transport hydrogen through all these pipelines, everything? Why don't we just set up and create hydrogen at this, you know, where it's going to be used as the source. Well, guess what? You're doing that. That's a really good insight.
Matt Murdock 9:54
Yeah.I mean, I think to your point, again, it's just you know, the produce that tool locally, you know, it's It just It solves so many problems at the same time, that I think it's a win, you know, I mean, there's always going to be an instance where you maybe have a larger landfill someplace, and you want to put it into a pipeline or put it on rail. Yeah, that works. But from another perspective of, you know, how do you develop community, build community, strengthen the economy, and actually take care of the neighborhoods you're driving through. I mean, by providing clearing a cleaner emissions, we're actually helping a lot of neighborhoods that are financially strapped because they're struggling, they're often poorer neighborhoods happened to be in industrial areas. So we can actually clean that air at the same time and try to bring some other justice to the issue.
Paul Rodden 10:41
Perk after perk for this setup. And what I think is also happening is kind of when I was doing a lot of research earlier on, it seemed like everyone was talking about the logistics of infrastructure with this, and this really kind of takes that and turns it on its head, or you don't have to worry about building out this massive pipeline infrastructure to support, you know, fueling stations and everything else. Now you have a different kind of model where you just set up these hubs that you can develop. And now there's your source.
Matt Murdock 11:12
That's it. Yeah, that's That's exactly it. Yes. II know, Hyzon Motors is one of our investors. I mean, we obviously will sell molecules to anybody. But when George Gu and I first met, who was the founder of Hyzon, that was our discussion is like, let's bring this closer and build a model that doesn't have to lay out a gigantic network that has to be maintained.
Paul Rodden 11:33
Matt Murdock 11:34
Build a model where you have a client that has 50 trucks, let's provide the fuel locally. And the nice thing about that is, as we provide produce that fuel safer, larger vehicles in the Hyzon industry situation, for instance, one of the biggest disadvantages, or one of the biggest obstacles to the hydrogen economy has been the availability of hydrogen, as you know, detour but you know, just recently, the hurricanes that hit your region, those large hydrogen producers, they had contracts that they had to provide hydrogen to the refinery. And so fueling stations in California are now not getting a molecule because of pre existing contracts. And if we come back and say, let's produce this locally, and do it in a way that builds out, and I'm servicing, say, 50, large trucks, for instance, but now I have excess hydrogen, you living in that neighborhood could say, hey, I'll buy a hydrogen car now, because there's actually hydrogen in the fueling station, right? ability for the economy to actually spread outwards, into the four wheel or the passenger vehicle economy as well.
Paul Rodden 12:34
Right now actually kind of dives into the next question about the price point, we're where do you Where are you at currently, with your price point? And does that include any of the credits or subsidies and other aid from the government in your price point?
Matt Murdock 12:50
Now? That's a great question, Paul. You know, I think it's difficult because hydrogen is not yet a fully sophisticated mature market with OPEC and oil and gas, you could literally go someplace and dial in the number. And you know, what the price is trading at? The hydrogen economy is definitely different. Everybody is very wrapped, is focused on what's the carbon intensity, what's the carbon lifecycle of this fuel. So obviously, the lower the carbon intensity, the better the price. And so you know, the contracts that we are working on is, like we try to take into consideration is like, we might be creating that credit in the sense that we're building it or converting that waste in there, but the credit actually gets paid at the fueling stations, right. So we obviously want the fueling station to have some advantages to that. And, you know, there's no reason why we should take it all or they should take it all. So you know, our pricing right now, our costs are very competitive. We have several offtake agreements signed, we have others that are coming out, price changes a little bit depending on how low the CI is, you know, our project in California is going to be somewhere between zero and negative 20. So as carbon negative, which is great. Our goal is to be competitive, and non LCFS states, you know, especially with the model of there's a tipping fee landfills receiving and they pay us some of the money back. And then we can actually lower the what our cost operating expenses are. We want to be competitive with SMR and get it to a price where it can be green hydrogen, and you can afford it in your vehicle. So I can't go into exact numbers because that changes, obviously by market by market, but our costs are definitely very competitive. And that are vendors that people are the clients looking at our hydrogen are fairly impressed right now.
Paul Rodden 14:35
And you know, so many people do talk about the price point of hydrogen SMR or anything else, but everything also involves feedstock prices. And so talking about SMR as being so cheap oil gas is exploding natural gas prices have exploded. So if they're using that as their feedstock, that's going to push their price point up too.
Matt Murdock 14:56
Exactly that's... Paul you're one of the first I've heard other than some of my meetings have made that you're exactly right. And yeah, and I think that's the other element is right, you know, we have to look at those costs that come into it. And so many people then green their hydrogen through some sort of government project that is really not a green molecule, but they've made it green because they bought a credit someplace. Right?
Paul Rodden 15:18
Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Matt Murdock 15:20
Seems cheating a little bit, too, right?
Paul Rodden 15:22
Well, and it was some of the people that I've worked with in the past. And one is a very large oil and gas producer, they hate the colors, right? They hate the colors, because their oil and gas, their color, so their colors, blue, and they don't like that, because this green stuff over here isn't really green, because no one's considering the full carbon lifecycle impact of wind and solar farms and all of that. And that's one of the things that I do actually like about your technology is that you're not relying on wind farms, solar farms, everything correct me if I'm wrong, is that house at least for the most part, so you really can control soup to nuts, your carbon impact on development?
Matt Murdock 16:06
Yeah, that's one of our goals, you know, like on the project in Richmond, and we are going to still be buying a little bit of electricity off the grid, just because economically, it still works. But the goal is, we want to be able to be fully autonomous. If we have to use some of the slipstream hydrogen that we're producing to generate electricity, we'll do that as well. Because one we want, you know, we want to be resilient to what's going on. Within the grid, we see what's going on with the electricity grid globally. Then any reference at the oil and gas prices and we see plate contract countries in Europe actually going back to diesel generators to get
Paul Rodden 16:42
...right burning coal...
Matt Murdock 16:44
and... right. And I think the more we can be autonomous, it's better to your point, we can control the inputs, we can get it. And also it gives us the ability to your points are really low and lower that carbon lifecycle. And the fuel then actually is greener. But it gives us that ability to kind of be a little bit more independent of what's going on outside of the fence, if that makes sense.
Paul Rodden 17:05
So all that being said economies of scale, is that going to help reduce that price point that is in flux?
Matt Murdock 17:12
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think from our perspective, we know that as we go right now, our first system and there in California is going to be processed in about 70, wet tons of GreenWaste. And we're going to be producing about 5000 kilos a day, the CI of zero to negative 15. I know that if we can double the size of a couple of pieces of equipment, we're not gonna double our cost on the equipment so that you know, there's going to be that kind of economies of scale. And so that's where I think, you know, once we get going further and faster, and we're making real efforts to kind of strengthen our supply chain, you can real efforts to build strategic relationships to build that out. When we get bigger, we're going to get prices that I could set competitive with SMR. Today, a current oil and gas prices, and I think in a way that can be close and at the same time cleaning up our neighborhoods, as well.
Paul Rodden 18:02
Now, are you comfortable sharing what the just your very first unit that's getting installed in California, the cost on that is that I think there's a very interesting connection to be made between this first unit and the cost of drilling oil.
Matt Murdock 18:19
Ah, I hadn't even thought about that. Now we're, you know, we're upwards to be above 25 million, kind of final numbers are coming in now. It just depends, you know, our first system, we're looking at it pressure, I'm doing a really serious compression on it as well. But one of our clients is looking for, like 8500 psi. So we have all in additional compressors first and second stage compressors and, and hydrogen storage, that's adding some cost plus global supply chain has been a real bear right now. We're pretty confident that we're going to get down much closer to the 20 million on this cost. And then that pencils out, especially if you're generating your own electricity, especially if you're doing five or six tons of hydrogen a day. It can really pencil on it. It'll it right now. I mean without subsidies, without any loans. Without anything. We're doing this first project entirely with equity with our partners, it still still has a good IRR. It's very attractive.
Paul Rodden 19:18
And what I was intimating it with oil and gas it I don't know what a DNC on on the wells that you were dealing with back in your day, when I was in oil and gas, it was close to $20 million for one well. I don't think a lot of people realize just how expensive it is to drill a well. And so if you can put in these modular units at roughly the same cost, that that really does give a nod to these modular units going into urban environments and creating a lot a lot, a lot of energy, really the same cost compared to the oil and gas industry. Not to disparage any any wells out there right now. I think a hydrocarbon source is Good for the hydrogen space. But in this case in this scenario, especially dealing with California or urbanized environments, this is a beautiful solution where oil and gas just doesn't...
Paul Rodden 19:36
Yeah, to be honest, Bob never made that connection. That's great. That's you're absolutely correct. This is like putting a Well, I mean, it's better than a well, in the sense that, you know, we're also making our waste just disappear, you know, right. So it's, yeah, I think that's a great comparison.
Paul Rodden 20:31
Good, please do... What type of technology needs to be refined in order to increase the efficiency of your process?
Matt Murdock 20:41
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, our process is pretty efficient, we're always gonna be tweaking it, you know, we're going to be filing additional patents and making improvements, you know, we're looking at especially once we want to provide, we want to produce as much of the electricity on site as possible, getting the ability and seen greater efficiencies of using our slipstream or even hydrogen to generate that electricity on board. I'd love right now we have tail gases of a PSA system, there's still a 15% of the hydrogen coming out. So there's new technologies there that can pull that out and good capex so that we can increase our production. I think that's really going to be exciting. I talked to a couple of companies that have done new technology to pull that hydrogen out of the tail gas with PSA, I think just recuperating, and then our process uses heat. So the better we can be at heat exchanging and getting that to be more and more efficient, that's going to be really exciting as well.
Paul Rodden 21:38
We kind of talked about this a little bit earlier. And just to highlight it again, and also dive in maybe a little bit deeper. You've talked about your feedstocks sources. And what's what is the preferred source to achieve that maximum efficiency in your process? He said, You can be indiscriminate, you can take in the styrofoam, the food, the plastics, are those solid materials just as good as saying a methane line coming right out of landfill? What's is there one that's kind of better than the other?
Matt Murdock 22:11
Yeah, I mean, to give you an idea, like 100, and call it 160, MCF of that gas is going to give you nearly 1500 kilos, hydrogen a day. So I think when you take that methane molecule and break it up, you already have two hydrogen so that that's a really rich source, obviously, on the feed on a solid feedstocks, plastics and other hydrocarbon sources, they have a lot of H's. And those H's become a lot of hydrogen, you know, but then the Biogenics are a good source to they don't produce as much hydrogen, you know, one of the things that we like to tell people is we can process multiple different diverse wastes mixed together as I don't have to separate them, we can put the banana peel in with the plastic bottle at the same time, which is a little unique, we then consistently have the same characterization of the syn gas that we make. But the quantity changes by the feedstock as you're alluding to. So certain feedstocks are just going to give you more hydrogen per ton than others. But banana peel doesn't produce as much as a plastic bottle. And so part of it is, and I think you alluded to this as well is there is I think, in my mind, there has to be a larger discussion of green, in the sense of, we want to clean the environment, if we were to go to say West Africa, where I used to live, they have tons of solar power, but they have no water. And green hydrogen was only a hydrogen from electrolysis, that would be really unfair in that part of the world, because one thing they have a ton of is black plastic blocks for everywhere, or the oceans or Southeast Asia with the amount of plastics floating around everywhere to clean that and turn it into clean fuels. There should be a green label that goes on that saying, This is good for the enviroment. And I think, you know, that would produce a lot of hydrogen, and at the same time, we'd be cleaning the environment. So I think from the perspective of feedstocks, and anything that's a little bit more hydrocarbon based, it's got more h's in it, we can work with that. But I think we also need to think broader on what we're trying to get to is partially cleaning the planet as well as getting clean fuels. Right?
Paul Rodden 24:19
Right. So now that Raven SR have a number of exciting announcements recently, the investment from the Ascsent Hydrogen Fund, which is run by David Wu, the strategic investment from Chevron and Itochu. Amazing. And the joint venture that we've talked about with Hyzon to create the hydrogen production hubs. Can you elaborate on the partnership with Hyzon what role that Raven SR going to play in that relationship?
Matt Murdock 24:46
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we are just I mean, to take one step back, great partnerships on different verticals, and each partner bringing a strength that's really good to our picture, and helps in a lot of ways The Hyzon model is really great. And the number of projects that we're looking at with them is frankly, global. I mean, I am in weekly conversations on projects around the world with them on places where we're looking at putting fleets and and so you know, our agreements, pretty simple. It's they can propose hubs to us, like they could get a contract with some fleet operator. And there, they can come to us and say, Hey, we didn't need hydrogen here, can we do it here. And if we find that there's a good economic model and the feedstock that we need, then Hyzon has the opportunity to invest into that project, and then take off some of those molecules that they can then incorporate into the trucking program that gets the fuel right there for those trucks. No longer, where am I going to get the hydrogen. And like we said earlier, they're driving green hydrogen. I mean, not to go too far down the road. But for every mile, you drive in a Hyzon, on truck with Raven hydrogen, the amount of avoided emissions and co2, co2 equivalent that you're saving is pretty spectacular, because you're cleaning up a landfill or avoiding emissions over here plus the clean emissions in the truck. But the arrangements are less. And then we in turn, are having multiple projects from other companies, I can go back to them and say, Oh, you need some trucks, or hey, does anybody need trucks and then Hyzon comes along, says, Hey, let's talk to these people about getting trucks. And that gives me a ready client to buy some of the hydrogen. It's amazing. It's kind of funny, because several years ago, we were looking still 5000 kilos, at that Richmond location. And a year and a half ago, we were like, who's gonna buy all that hydrogen. And today, it's all it's all gone, Yeah, I could probably double the size of it and still sell it all. The economy is growing. Hyzon got some great models out there. They're talking to some amazing clients. And when you can wrap that all together and provide clean hydrogen and clean fuel, people want it. I'm excited. So it's for us, it's exciting partnership, and we scratch each other's backs.
Paul Rodden 26:59
So last question. It's a big one. With with the major cash injection that you've had the strategic partnerships that you've got, and you're developing, what's next for Raven?
Matt Murdock 27:10
Well, we're hoping to get it... Yeah, I mean, we are... the economy is moving so much. So fast, we did a good capital raise on around A great strategic partners, we're gonna be going around B very soon, very soon, probably beginning of next year, we've actually got some funds that are going to come in hopefully in a Pre B, because we have projects that are lining up in the pipeline that we really want to get ahead of start getting purchasing on long lead items. We are, you know, intending to get a gas to gas project, kind of like you were alluding to earlier, we have a gas to gas system that it just leaves off the Sol's we want to have on the ground by the beginning of the second quarter next year. And then we look at having our Richmond project on the ground by quarter three of next year. And I want by then to be able to have equipment in the inventory. So that when that first system hits the ground, and everybody now finally believes that we can do what we say we can do, I want to be able to start satisfying the market and going into multiple locations, multiple projects at a time and kind of start leapfrogging and so we're in conversations right now in Europe, Asia, Australia, North America, the entirety of North America. And so these, these projects are going to be pretty big and the partnerships that are coming along, are really exciting. It's, it's really humbling, actually. So
Paul Rodden 28:27
that's Great, I love the success that you're having so much. And as long as you can promise me that one of those hubs is going to be Houston. Well, we're going to be good to go. I want to see hydrogen built out in this state so much? Let's do it. I'd love to do it, right? So if anyone wants more information about Raven SR where can they go?
Matt Murdock 28:50
www.ravensr.com. We have a good website there. And then there's emails on they can we have LinkedIn, and some Facebook pages and actually a Twitter page. So I've got a really good media team that's out there pushing and promoting and if anybody has questions, I'm work really hard to answer them. It might take a little while, but work really hard to get them all answered.
Paul Rodden 29:10
That's fantastic. Matt, thank you so much for being with us today. It's been a great interview. It's always great talking to you. Take care, great blessings in the future. Good luck on your future ventures.
Matt Murdock 29:25
Thank you, Paul. I love your podcast. I love and listen to multiple episodes.
Paul Rodden 29:28
So I'll talk to you later.
Matt Murdock 29:33
Paul Rodden 29:33
Hey, this is Paul. I hope you'd like this podcast. If you did and want to hear more. I'd appreciate it if you would either. Subscribe to this channel on YouTube, or connect with your favorite platform through my website at www.thehydrogenpodcast.com. Thanks for listening. I very much appreciate it. Have a great day.