January 25, 2022 • Paul Rodden • Season: 2022 • Episode: SIS05
Welcome to The Hydrogen Podcast!
Special Interview Series - THP05: Bill Smith / Infinity Fuel Cell and Hydrogen - Today's interview is going to be unique. The company we're going to discuss is Infinity Fuel Cell and Hydrogen, which has many years of combined military and space fuel cell experience, designing the next generation of air independent fuel cells, and regenerative fuel cells. With the support of NASA and several other government agencies, they have achieved key breakthroughs in fuel cell design, that have significantly reduced the complexity of these systems and dramatically improved performance and reliability. I think Infinity is an absolutely fascinating company. And there's so much to unpack here that I might have to beg Bill to come back and talk more on the show.
Bill's the founder and president of Infinity Fuel Cell and Hydrogen. He started the company in 2002, focusing on the application of PEM technology to fuel cell and hydrogen systems. He is the program manager and principal investigator for most of the major infinity programs, including programs with the FAA and the NASA Glenn Research Center, DOD fuel cell projects for the Naval Air Warfare Center in China Lake, the naval undersea warfare center, the Defense Logistics Agency, and for the General Atomics LDUUV program with the Office of Naval Research, and that just scratches the surface of what they're doing right now. Bill holds a degree in physics and got his MBA at the University of Massachusetts Amherst.
Thank you for listening and I hope you enjoy the podcast. Please feel free to email me at firstname.lastname@example.org with any questions. Also, if you wouldn't mind subscribing to my podcast using your preferred platform… I would greatly appreciate it.
VISIT THE HYDROGEN PODCAST WEBSITE
CHECK OUT OUR BLOG
WANT TO SPONSOR THE PODCAST?
Send us an email to: email@example.com
NEW TO HYDROGEN AND NEED A QUICK INTRODUCTION?
Start Here: The 6 Main Colors of Hydrogen
Paul Rodden 0:00
Hello, everyone, this is Paul Rodden. And I want to welcome you back to the hydrogen podcast. Today's interview is going to be unique. The company we're going to discuss is Infinity Fuel Cell and Hydrogen, which has many years of combined military and space fuel cell experience, designing the next generation of air independent fuel cells, and regenerative fuel cells. With the support of NASA and several other government agencies, they have achieved key breakthroughs in fuel cell design, that have significantly reduced the complexity of these systems and dramatically improved performance and reliability. I think Infinity is an absolutely fascinating company. And there's so much to unpack here that I might have to beg Bill to come back and talk more on the show. So let's queue up the theme song and dive right into the interview.
Paul Rodden 0:49
So the big questions in the energy industry today are, how is hydrogen the primary driving force behind the evolution of energy? Where is capital being deployed for hydrogen projects globally? And where are the best investment opportunities for early adopters who recognize the importance of hydrogen? I will address the critical issues and give you the information you need to deploy capital. Those are the questions that will unlock the potential of hydrogen. And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Paul Rodden, and welcome to The Hydrogen Podcast.
Paul Rodden 1:17
Okay, welcome back. Today I'm joined by Bill Smith. Bill's the founder and president of Infinity Fuel Cell and Hydrogen. He started the company in 2002, focusing on the application of PEM technology to fuel cell and hydrogen systems. He is the program manager and principal investigator for most of the major infinity programs, including programs with the FAA and the NASA Glenn Research Center, DOD fuel cell projects for the Naval Air Warfare Center in China Lake, the naval undersea warfare center, the Defense Logistics Agency, and for the General Atomics LDUUV program with the Office of Naval Research, and that just scratches the surface of what they're doing right now. Bill holds a degree in physics and got his MBA at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Welcome, Bill. Thank you so much. It's great to have you here on the podcast.
Bill Smith 2:10
Thank you. Great to be on the podcast.
Paul Rodden 2:12
So tell us a little bit about your background, what led you to start Infinity and what your company specializes in?
Bill Smith 2:21
Well, I first got involved in fuel cells and hydrogen way back in 1986, I was working for a unit of United Technologies called Hamilton Standard Space and Sea Systems Division. Most people probably haven't heard of that. But at Hamilton, we were the prime contractor for many NASA programs, including the spacesuit the Extra Vehicular Mobility Unit. And we were involved in fuel cells and hydrogen by virtue of acquiring a business unit from General Electric in 1984. That originated and invented proton exchange membrane technology. And we were at Hamilton primarily interested in hydrogen generation and oxygen generation with a focus on the oxygen for use aboard nuclear submarines because we also made systems for undersea at Hamilton that evolved into the the electrolyzer that is now flown on ISS on the International Space Station to provide life support oxygen. So there's a natural path there. And we also inherited the technology that had been used to power the Gemini spacecraft that was a proton exchange membrane fuel cell that powered that spacecraft. And we worked on evolving that for future applications. By 1996, several of us were interested in commercial applications of fuel cells and electrolyzers. And we realized that that wouldn't really fit in the United Technologies, military and space division. And we were fortunate enough to be able to break off and found a new company called proton energy systems. And we started that in 1996, and took it public on the NASDAQ in the year 2000. With a focus on making commercial electrolyzers commercial hydrogen generators and on developing PEM fuel cells in we took it public in on the NASDAQ in 2000. By 2002, there was a focus at proton on industrial applications. And I really was attracted to aerospace and space and other applications like that. So I left and started Infinity Fuel Cell and Hydrogen with really a focus on aerospace and defense applications. And now we're getting back to that kind of Back to the Future, renewing the interest in commercial hydrogen generation as well. So been around it for a while and it's amazing to see the interest once once again, so strong.
Paul Rodden 4:46
It really... it really is. So I know that with the type of work that you do and the sensitive nature of some of the projects, you can't really discuss anything in detail, but would you mind giving us kind of an overview of the work that you've done with NASA and how they utilize that fuel cell hydrogen technology.
Bill Smith 5:04
Sure, we started working with NASA in around 2004. At that time, NASA was thinking of retiring the space shuttle and space shuttle use an alkaline fuel cell technology was actually made by another unit of United Technologies, UTC power. But UTC power wasn't developing PEM fuel cells they were it was an alkaline system. And they wanted to stay with that. And NASA was interested in developing 10 fuel cells, and they were looking to the next generation spacecraft beyond the Orbiter. So we were fortunate enough to be funded through a series of SBIR programs all the way through phase one, phase two and phase three. And then in 2008 while NASA was developing a new lander that was going to be aimed at powering the lander landing on the moon under a Constellation program, as it was called at the time, NASA increased the investment in our technology so that we could provide potentially provide the fuel cell power system for the Altair lunar lander as part of the Constellation program. And that fortunately, again, that funded us through several levels of development of the internal bipolar plate, which is the the core technology. And even after a Constellation program was cancelled, they continued to fund us. And what they were interested really interested in was the way that we could manage water in zero gravity. What we do, which is different than other fuel cells that are used in space, is that we provide an internal water, water oxygen phase separator in each and every bipolar plate. And what that means is that we can eliminate many external ancillary systems, for example, on the shuttle orbiter fuel cell, there were rotary phase separators, that would separate the product water and the reactant in the fuel cell operation, which was a parasitic load, and a reliability hit. So that we're able to put static phase separators with no moving parts that separate the water and gas as the water is produced in each cathode. And we do that via means of a pressure differential across a material that is pretty interesting. It allows water to transport through but will resist gas intruding on it. And now we've incorporated that into fuel cells for potential space applications and underwater applications and others as well.
Paul Rodden 7:30
The whole thing just floors me, I talked to so many people throughout the industry, talking about fuel cells and the applications and everyone always talks about cars or trains or ships. I don't think anyone realizes how the longevity behind fuel cells have been that they were used in space. And I think it's incredible. And I'm just floored by it. And I love the fact that you're able to bring that technology into this next kind of hydrogen movement that we're seeing today. And I just I kind of get a little giddy thinking about all the cool applications that you've touched on historically. And it's amazing.
Bill Smith 8:09
Oh, yeah, and we were fortunate here, because we, we have a team that included some of the individuals, the engineers that worked on the original Gemini program that worked on the original Apollo program. In fact, our safety reliability engineer that we still work with, worked on the Apollo program. So we have a wealth of experience on on these different mission applications.
Paul Rodden 8:34
That's incredible. Okay, if you don't mind, I'd like to pivot away to another industry for a moment.
Bill Smith 8:41
Paul Rodden 8:42
I think it's really important to discuss your work in regards to the Defense Department. And the research that you've done, you guys have made some incredible strides with your fuel cell technology to help develop unmanned aerial drones, and undersea unmanned drones. I'll try to leave this question a little more open ended. So you can choose how you want to respond to the subject nature, if you would mind providing an overview of the work for the Defense Department and your fuel cells and how they play a role in advancing technological innovation in that field. Are there any projects that you can highlight on that?
Bill Smith 9:15
Sure, I think I can talk about the underwater work. The kind of a common theme is that both, of course, space and underwater, you don't have air available so immediately, hydrogen air fuel cells are pretty challenged when there's no air so our systems are air independent fuel cells designed to operate in any orientation at zero gravity that it means you're you know, you have no orientation. Underwater, it means that you don't have to worry about the inclination, or the tilt of the vehicle that you're in, so that it was a natural to look to apply these for underwater vehicles including unmanned underwater vehicles. And through a series of programs we were funded by the Office of Naval Research in 2012. Initially, we were teamed with General Atomics, who's better known because they manufacture the the drones, like the Predator drones. But they've also been working under sea as well. And we have been pursuing that series of programs since 2012, with General Atomics and directly sometimes with the Navy. And that continues to be a very good application for the technology because of some of the same interest that NASA has. They want to make the systems simpler, more reliable, and able to operate at peak efficiency. And all of that plays well, for underwater applications.
Paul Rodden 10:36
I think you and I had kind of talked before about drone applications for it, and even, you know, open air drones using fuel cells instead of batteries. And I think that's, that's, I guess, that would really play to your strong suit, too, right. I mean, the, as you mentioned before, the more the 3d aspect underwater can still apply to drone technology, too.
Bill Smith 10:57
It can, it can, and we've been developing our own hydrogen air fuel cell that can be used for these drone applications. Not I have to admit it. It's not as advanced as our air independent systems. But that's an area that we're going to continue to develop. And there's, I think the reason for that really is is that these new generation, unmanned aerial vehicles have a lot of benefit if they're electrically powered, because then it could be vertical takeoff and landing and so on, by controlling those multiple rotor motors. And it's difficult to do that with internal combustion engine unless you maybe hybridize and feed a battery. But inherently, storage of energy as hydrogen is lighter than batteries, if you want to store a lot of energy, if you're not storing a lot of energy batteries will be a better way to do it. But if you want to use more power or fly longer fly farther then fuel cells and hydrogen provide a distinct benefit. And we intend to work in that area as well. What we bring to that I think that is is a bit unique is that we are now AS9100 certified for quality, we understand the aircraft environment, we came out of the United Technologies unit that also had aircraft products. UTCs Hamilton Standard division still makes very, very many numerous products for the aircraft industry, including the electronic fuel controls that are on the engines that control the Pratt and Whitney engines on the planes that you fly. So we came out of industry background where we understood how to work with the aircraft industry. And we still do in fact, I was invited to be on what was called, I think it was aviation rulemaking committee, the FAA was looking into using fuel cells aboard part 25 transport aircraft, and formed the committee back in 2017, to advise the FAA on direction rules to use on applying fuel cells for those aircraft. And so we've been involved in in the FAA in that manner. And also, we've been funded by the FAA to advance some of our fuel cell work for our hydrogen air products.
Paul Rodden 13:06
Oh, that's great. I can't wait to hear more about that in the future as that product line gets built out. I can't wait to hear more about it. I'm excited for that one. I think it's interesting to note the commercial applications for this technology as well. medical delivery, remote areas, pipeline inspection, bridge evaluations, surveillance, any drone requiring camera gear, the particularly sensitive to vibrations.
Bill Smith 13:30
Paul Rodden 13:30
Your technology can address a number of these situations, which dramatically improves the performance. Yes?
Bill Smith 13:36
Yes, absolutely. Again, compared to an internal combustion engine, you immediately solve the vibration problem with using a fuel cell to generate the power. And as I was mentioning before, by being able to fly longer or fly with increased power, compared to batteries for a given application, you know, you have those those benefits as well.
Paul Rodden 13:59
Now, I'm still just kind of blown away by your technology in the applications that you've historically had. I think it's amazing. Do you mind if we take a little bit of time to highlight Infinity's XSTORRA® Regenerative Fuel Cell System?
Bill Smith 14:13
Paul Rodden 14:14
I find the concept of the mobile regenerative fuel cell system extremely interesting. And I was hoping you could go into some of the detail about it and talk about how it's being used in real world applications.
Bill Smith 14:27
Well, it first of all, talk about the kind of the series of programs that we've had with the Naval Air Warfare Center. This was out of China Lake, California, which is about 40 miles west of Death Valley. So it's a pretty unforgiving area. And yeah, but there was a lot of interest in the 2000s especially the late 2000s in providing power and energy and fuel to deployed remote Expeditionary Forces. You know, when we said we're working with the Navy, the branch of the Navy that was benefit most in this case was the Marines. So bear that in mind, yes, it. So the interest there was to develop a mobile micro grid that could be deployed with the with those forces and provide them with the means to generate their own power and minimize fuel logistics to the field. And also the the operators of the of China Lake have a flying range of about the size of the state of Rhode Island. And they have data acquisition systems and other systems that need to be powered over the large geographic area. And some of it is done with photovoltaics and batteries, and they were looking to extend the performance of those systems as well. So they funded us in a series of three programs that culminated in the combination system one, a two trailer system, one that is a five kilowatt, deployable photovoltaic array that folds up onto a trailer that can be towed by a Humvee. And then we'll hydraulically unfold and deploy self level and open up like a flower. And the second system was a hydrogen air regenerative fuel cell system. And there we developed our own proprietary high pressure hydrogen generator that would fill the hydrogen tanks that are located on the roof of that trailer. And we integrated in this case, it was earlier in our development, we integrated a third party hydrogen air fuel cell, but we had total system design responsibility, total system programming and overall control responsibility. So we ended up with this with this call it discrete regenerative fuel cells separate fuel cell stack, separate electrolyzer stack, but you could generate hydrogen directly at pressure without using any compressor. And it was designed to opt to produce hydrogen at 2000 psi, while inputting low pressure water at about 20 psi. And it we would break the water down into hydrogen and oxygen and that fill the tanks had built in dryers to make sure that they you met the requirements for storing dry hydrogen. And you could even tap into it to fill other vehicles or aircraft that would need hydrogen and it would grid connect or it could Island all by itself. It it was field tested at China Lake but did not go into production. It is available to go into production, because we withdrew from Iraq and which was the major force driving the requirements. And that's a good thing. That's but we'll get back to that product.
Paul Rodden 17:27
I mean, there's there's got to be plenty of commercial opportunities for that, too.
Bill Smith 17:30
Yeah, it's an ideal system. If you have say, a natural disaster, and you immediately need to provide power. You know, that's agood way to do it.
Paul Rodden 17:37
Yeah. With everything happening Kentucky right now.
Bill Smith 17:39
Yeah, yeah, you could you could roll those in the air because of the the way it could uniquely operate with it by tied into a grid or not into a grid or just on its own photovoltaics and store a lot of energy. It's, I think, ideal for an emergency situation. Yeah, really. Another another feature of that not Not to belabor it, but it could also accept power from diesel gensets, because the military would have many of these gensets that have to run all the time. But they they run inefficiently. So you could pick up some of basically the the leftover load capability that they had and put it into the the regenerative fuel cell and it would, you know, make and store hydrogen otherwise, it would just go completely go to waste.
Paul Rodden 18:24
Yeah, that's incredible. And just how much you've thought about all of this. It's, it's still floors me, I love this. I really do love this company. And I think you've touched on this next question a little bit. But yeah, can we talk a little bit more about the your hydrogen generating capabilities when you initially told me about the proton exchange membrane technology, and how it produces hydrogen at high pressure without using the compressor? Right? I was I was floored the concept. It's it really does. It's fascinating to me. Can you walk us through how it works a little bit more and highlight some of the benefits and the technology for our listeners?
Bill Smith 19:00
Sure, sure. In many cases, people are they want a hydrogen they may be much less interested in the oxygen. And if you generate both gases at pressure, managing high pressure oxygen can become pretty complex and expensive because of the safety considerations of high pressure oxygen. However, if you can generate hydrogen add pressure and maintain the oxygen at low pressure that can make your system simpler and safer. And the way that this works is that we operate a conventional in this case, liquid anode feed electrolyzer, where we feed water into the anode or the oxygen chamber of the the electrolyzer and we, you know, have the electrolysis reaction proceed there. And in that we break the water down into protons, electrons and gaseous oxygen. And the protons of course, are pumped through the proton exchange membrane. That's why it's called a proton exchange membrane. Right to the hydrogen side where they combined with the electrons that are pushed through by the external power supply and generate the hydrogen gas. And the the trick to achieving high pressure is you design your cell structures to be able to withstand the pressures, the membrane, we use thicker membranes as well, but the membrane properly supported can, you know, withstand 1000s of psi of differential pressure between the hydrogen and the oxygen. So with properly designed cell structures that can can take the mechanical forces of the high pressure and a properly designed membrane support structure, you can generate high pressure and that membrane will retain its integrity. Now a trick and doing that is you need that support structure of the membrane to be of the nature that will allow water to go into the reaction at the same time gases coming out of the reaction. If you don't get that right, then you can starve your cell of water. And then all you do on the other side where the hydrogen is being generated, you close the valve, and you let the pressure build up. And it will naturally build up very efficiently. You only have to overcome the Nernst's potential, which is about 30 millivolts per decade of increase in pressure or 30 millivolts per cell to go up 10 times in pressure. So to go from 15 psi, but atmospheric pressure to 150. You know, that's 30 millivolts to go from 150 to 1500. Another 30 millivolts. So it's a very efficient way to do and of course it does it without any noise without any vibration, you just simply get your high pressure gas. And if you've ever been around compressors that, oh, yeah, that's a benefit in itself.
Paul Rodden 21:44
Right? Because they're loud, and it scares my kids every time I turn mine on. I'm really amazed by the background that you have, and the in depth knowledge that you have to really speak to the science behind hydrogen and subatomic levels. It's, it's, it's really great. Moving forward with infinity. Yeah, what are your future plans for the company in terms of aerospace and defense industry, and also extremely curious to know about your goals on commercializing all your technology...
Bill Smith 22:17
Sure, the way we look at it is we have a two track approach to the overall business in our mind, you know, we've been doing aerospace and defense for a long, long time. And there's applications that are, are just coming to fruition right now. For instance, the space applications, it's amazing. There's Look, people are looking at using fuel cells to power various different vehicles from actually launch systems to landing systems as well, NASA is looking at fuel cells, again, for use in Landers. NASA is looking at fuel cells for use and regenerative fuel cells to power systems on the surface of the Moon through the two week long lunar night, and we have an active program with NASA in that regard right now. So you know, we want to become a mature aerospace provider to be able to meet our customers needs, you know, now and to, you know, well into the future, because these programs will last for a long, long time, what we're part of right now will probably still be going strong and hundreds of years from now as we continue to explore the solar system and beyond. So that's, that's what we call track one, you know, that's, that's our base. And we want to we really want to mature and achieve production status in that and you know, meet those mission requirements. Now that historically, however, what that has meant is that that's allowed us to produce and mature different inventions and improvements in the technology that can benefit terrestrial systems. So in addition to providing profitable programs that have kept the lights on, it's provided product improvements, and what we're doing on the track two's feeding these product improvements, like high pressure, hydrogen generation into commercial products, as part of the China Lake regenerative fuel cell program, we developed a modular architecture that we think will serve even very large systems well in the future. And we intend to bring that modular architecture to help produce systems that can be scaled up to many megawatts or hundreds of megawatts in the future. So we, we see that it's synergistic to track one Aerospace products is continuing and growing and spinning off resources that help us develop the track two products for commercial hydrogen generation. And that's what we're going to be heading toward as well. Eventually, I can see that the two are splitting into separate divisions, because there's very different characteristics of both markets. And we saw that actually way back United Technologies in that same business unit I worked in the Space and Sea Systems Division of Hamilton Standard, but the other part of Hamilton Standard was commercial, commercial products. commercial aircraft products. So we see a similar future for us here.
Paul Rodden 25:05
I can't wait for that to really take off. I really can't. One final question.
Bill Smith 25:10
Paul Rodden 25:10
You do have a wealth of experience in hydrogen industry. Would you give us your thoughts on the current state of the industry and where you think hydrogen is headed in the future?
Bill Smith 25:22
I'll try it. It's, it's kind of like...
Paul Rodden 25:25
It's not a loaded question at all...
Bill Smith 25:27
No, On the wall behind me, there's a picture of the IPO that we did back in 2000. And there was a lot of excitement back then, back then everybody was going to be driving a fuel cell powered car by you know, the year 2001-2002. And hydrogen is going to be the, you know, the fuel of the future. And it ended up being the future, but not, but longer term future. So we saw that, that boom, back then. And then, you know, a lot of things happened with the everything from the election between Bush and Gore, and 2008. The economy problems, you name it, a lot of things happen in between. So hydrogen, after that boom, in 2000, went kind of quiet. However, many companies like ours, plug power Hydrogenics, and Fuel Cell Energy and others continued to develop their products. So what what is different right now is that you have companies that started that have been around now for 20 or 30 years, in some cases, that have been continuing to develop their products, find applications, reduce costs, get feedback from the market, and, you know, create products that are meeting market needs. And, you know, that's that's a distinct difference from that last boom. And then, in parallel, I think that the, there's a global resurgence of understanding of the issues involved with climate change, and the need to decarbonize the future. And, you know, people are looking are starting to create a way to financialize that, to translate the need that need for decarbonisation of the planet into financial pathways that can make hydrogen competitive with other systems, you know, traditionally, it's, you know, people would have the attitude that they couldn't afford to have clean, renewable energy systems now, we can't afford not to. Yeah, and you know, what I can see as a true application for hydrogen as the energy carrier for electrical power systems, electrical energy storage systems to help make intermittent wind and solar power systems available all the time with ways to store lots of energy cost effectively and hybridize with batteries. Batteries can still take probably best for overnight hydrogen better for if you need large amounts of backup storage for for weeks, or even seasonally, but importantly, to in transportation, and industrial processes. There's many, many industrial processes where natural gas is used to generate hydrogen, for instance, in ammonia production, and then in heat treating and things like that electrolytic green hydrogen is a pathway to, you know, eliminate the use of carbon for those processes. I know there's a lot of talk about making hydrogen from natural gas and sequestering the co2. But I think that's a stop gap. You can do it but I don't know how much benefit is going to bring you ultimately. And then of course, with transportation, decarbonisation of the transportation sector, starting with, I'd say the heavy duty applications, I think trucks are an excellent place to start. Because you have a situation where the vehicle itself has the the real estate to store significant amounts of hydrogen. The refueling infrastructure is well defined enough so that you can your focus on equipping a smaller number of highly capable stations that can refuel those heavy trucks, and it can provide a real benefit there. Cars I think will come along, but that's a lot tougher. Yeah. Consumers are the toughest market I think, yeah. And then aircraft as well, Airbus, and I think maybe Boeing finally, but Airbus has been putting a lot of emphasis on planning for hydrogen powered aircraft in the future. And there's, there's developments right now with companies like ZeroAvia that are converting aircraft to run on hydrogen power for propulsion. Yeah, there's many other applications aboard aircraft where hydrogen fuel cells can provide benefit as you look to perhaps decentralize the power sources on a large transport aircraft to reduce the weight of the wiring in the aircraft. So I think that those types of transportation needs can be accommodated and will make an important difference in the future. The what we're seeing right now in the markets is kind of amazing because it's happened in such a short period of time. I think that there'll be, this is probably a boom of interest. And as people start scrambled to try to figure out, you know where everybody's going to fit. And then it will, you know, probably settle down a little bit, but I think it'll settle down to a higher level of application and a higher level of benefit of decarbonisation than it ever was before. So I think it's a maybe a step change going on right now. And, you know, I think it has a bright future. And I think, you know, longer term for generations to come it is a pathway to have a carbon free future for the entire globe. And that's pretty exciting.
Paul Rodden 30:30
I completely agree. And you know, your thoughts on on utilizing water for the hydrogen generation versus hydrocarbons. I think you're more of the more uniquely suited people to talk about that, versus a lot of people that are just jumping on renewable hydrogen, you actually have decades of experience dealing with that. Right. So I really like hearing your thoughts on that side of the hydrogen industry. Is the actual you know, making the hydrogen from water. I think it's really amazing. To get your views on it. It's been a great conversation. Thank you so much.
Bill Smith 31:07
Paul Rodden 31:07
I really, the the kid in me, just loved hearing about the China Lake stuff. I think that's it's incredible. I can't wait to see what what you what you're able to put out commercially. Yeah. So thank you again, for taking the time today. I can't wait to hopefully get you back for round two.
Bill Smith 31:25
Thank you very much for having me, and I look forward to continuing the discussion.
Paul Rodden 31:29
Alright, everyone. If you enjoyed listening to Bill's views on the hydrogen industry and want to check out his company, Infinity Fuel Cell and Hydrogen, we highly recommend visiting their website at www.infinityfuel.com to learn more. Thanks again. Take care. Hey, this is Paul. I hope you liked this podcast. If you did and want to hear more, I'd appreciate it if you would either subscribe to this channel on YouTube, or connect with your favorite platform through my website at www.thehydrogenpodcast.com. Thanks for listening. I very much appreciate it. Have a great day.