May 26, 2022 • Paul Rodden • Season: 2022 • Episode: SIS07
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Welcome to The Hydrogen Podcast!
Special Interview Series – THP07: Alex Ivanenko / HyPoint – In today’s interview I want to showcase an amazing company that is disrupting the aviation industry and is positioning their technology to be THE SOLUTION to hydrogen powered aircraft. To give you a brief overview… The arrival of zero-emission aviation vehicles has been limited by the energy density limitation of Li-ion batteries and the specific power limitations of hydrogen fuel cells. HyPoint managed to build next generation fuel cells with both high specific power and high energy density — exactly what aircraft designers are looking for. They are using a next-generation high temperature membranes (HTPEM) instead of a low temperature membrane (LTPEM), which increases the efficiency of a cooling system by at least 300%. HyPoint turbo air-cooled fuel cells are ideal for a variety of aviation and air mobility uses including for logistic drones, air taxis, electric vertical takeoff and landing vehicles (eVTOLs), and fixed-wing airplanes. The technology is amazing. The leadership team is amazing. This company is on my short list of one’s to watch for the future.
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Paul Rodden 0:00
Hello, everyone. This is Paul Rodden. I want to welcome you back to the Hydrogen Podcast. I’m excited about today’s interview. Today we’re going to dive into the amazing role that hydrogen fuel cells will play in the aviation industry. I asked the CEO of HyPoint to come on the show and discuss their technology and give us his thoughts on this on the future of zero emission aircraft. To give you a glimpse behind the curtain, high point is a manufacturer of next generation hydrogen fuel cell systems. HyPoints turbo air cooled hydrogen fuel cells features zero co2 emissions and game changing energy performance for their air transportation and urban Air Mobility market. I have followed HyPoint for a while now, and I think what they’re doing for the aviation industry is incredible. So let me cue up the theme song really quick, so we can dive into the interview.
Paul Rodden 0:57
So the big questions in the energy industry today are, how is hydrogen the primary driving force behind the evolution of energy? Where’s capital being deployed for hydrogen projects globally? And where are the best investment opportunities for early adopters who recognize the importance of hydrogen? I will address the critical issues and give you the information you need to deploy capital. Those are the questions that will unlock the potential of hydrogen. And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Paul Rodden, and welcome to the hydrogen podcast.
Paul Rodden 1:26
Okay, welcome back. Today I am joined by Dr. Alex Ivanenko. Dr. Ivanenko, is the co founder and CEO of HyPoint the startup developing hydrogen fuel cell systems specifically for the aviation and aeronautics industry. In 2020, HyPoint won NASA’s Itech initiative for its breakthrough high temperature fuel cell system, which utilizes compressed air for both cooling and oxygen supply to deliver unprecedented energy density and specific power performance. Alex has a PhD in electrochemistry, and spent the majority of his impressive career in the energy industry. Alex, welcome. It’s great to have you on the podcast.
Alex Ivanenko 2:10
Hello, Paul. Hello, everyone. Thank you very much for having me today. That is really, really proud to be here. And thank you very much for inviting me today.
Paul Rodden 2:18
I couldn’t be more thrilled for you to join us today. So let’s, let’s talk a little bit about your background. What led you to start HyPoint and what your company specializes in?
Alex Ivanenko 2:31
So as you said earlier, I’m PhD In electrochemistry but built my career in international business development at US corporations like 3M, and Corning many, many years where I have been taking projects from r&d stage to commercialization, exactly what I’m doing right now in HyPoint. And we started our company in 2019, when we were accepted by startup accelerator, yeah. So and we moved completely from Russia, to the United States. And so of course, we are no strangers to hydrogen fuel cell technology. Actually, we developed before both membrane technology and fuel cells. So that is why we are so confident that existing fuel cells will not work in aviation industry because we know that industry well. And product well, and actually in October in 2019, I met with Val Miftakhov, who is the CEO and founder of ZeroAvia. And he inspired us to think about hydrogen aviation, actually, in that in that time, no one’s thought about that hydrogen aviation. Are you kidding me? So what is that? And we started to think, hey, how to integrate existing fuel cells in our technology and aviation industry. And we very quickly figured out that, no, it doesn’t work. And we started to think how to increase efficiency of cooling because it is a main issue with low temp fuel cell, especially for aviation industry. And that is how we came to idea to replace a low temp membrane to high temp membrane because high temp membrane operates in high temperature and that makes easy to cool the system. So we invited in the team, founding team and the like I will say, experts from high temp membrane industry and product. So it’s Brian Benicewitz, John Vogel and Rhonda Staudt. Brian, by the way is inventor of high temperature membrane Rhonda Staudt and John Vogel where I would say the best in the class engineers who really commercialized first high tech membrane technology into solving the dam when they were at Black Power. And we incorporated company made new brands in February of 2020. And that’s how we started our company. I mean, we really started to develop the system and and etc, etc.
Paul Rodden 4:58
I mean, it’s really interesting. And just seeing how really quickly the company has developed and come to where it is. Now, with all the big news that you have coming out, before we dive too deep into the technology, can you discuss the current state of the aviation industry? And why there’s this need for hydrogen powered aircraft?
Alex Ivanenko 5:19
So there is a few questions. So there are a few answers. First of all, first of all, these has a problem with climate change, and actually transportation, you know, that impact the bottom five different estimations about between two and 5%. And of course, you cannot solve the problem of climate change without zero co2 emission, electric vehicle, this is a main kind of say, main trend in that main idea to switch to different types of electric vehicles, I would say, and people will have to say, take it out of brackets, the question we will speak about this later, I think why not lithium and, and others and, and the second reason that you can see that right now a lot of airlines companies, so they really started to invest, not just sign otherwise, but really started to invest funds in different companies and who’s working on hydrogen, aviation and electric aviation, I would say, because the question of price of ticket, you can really increase your efficiency of operation of your company, just as vision for standard fuel to something new. That is the mighty way that motivate them to integrate new type of fuels in their in their business model.
Paul Rodden 6:33
That’s great. What’s your take? On the industry’s view on hydrogen powered aircraft? Are they embracing that need to change? And are they taking a gradual wait and see approach or seeking out collaboration with your company to investigate their options?
Alex Ivanenko 6:49
So I will say that I experienced with both. So you know, because time to time that people who’s like a basic Aircraft Corporation, who’s our, our customers, they came to us with the idea that Hey, guys, and Alex, we check different types of technology. This doesn’t work well, for our helicopter, lithium batteries, you know, they created the first joke, I can tell you that one of the meetings with their CTO, he said, I asked them, please explain why you would like to use hydrogen in the helicopter you you can use lithium batteries, he said, Me, Alex, there are three liars in the world, liars, big liars and battery suppliers. And after that, I not kidding. That’s that’s really true that after that, then is to the people who’s really would like to use such technology that really already tried different types of technology, and they ready to take something new then the Leica start to work with startups like HyPoint to bring the technology in reality, because they tried everything and and there is everything doesn’t work for them. And this is the one of the example The second example is like a big companies and they of course so they’re waiting because they are big corporations, and they cannot directly work with startups and etc. So they’re moving from time to time slow step by step development and etc. And of course, for them how to say focusing on how HyPoint develop deliver results is very, very important. And now we have one of the corporation in our portfolio like a paying customer. And that is as I said earlier, so we have two types of customers and both model we accepted because we are startup company, of course we have to work with everyone who would like to work with us of course.
Paul Rodden 8:40
So just curious, but in your estimation, what is the future market potential for hydrogen in the aviation industry?
Alex Ivanenko 8:50
I think this is a will be the main fuel for next 50-60 years there is understood and confident like right now as it gets done like a standard gas line or kerosene who’s using in aviation it will be sustainable hydrogen but we got to wait for that man that will be like a fully accepted by by the market and market right now. It’s a huge movement for the market. So and because you know that aircraft guys, they and engineers, they are very very conservative. So they’re so if you invent in the event that something like 50 years ago, you still use it in your aircraft and etc. And so and and but this is a huge movement is still going and I’m happy to be part of this, this movement, at least how to say transformation of the market. And we make that possible. We are how to say trying to bring our technology to accelerate that process.
Paul Rodden 9:45
Okay, so let’s let’s finally get into HyPoint and the technology that you’re developing. First of all, why the aviation industry and your fuel cell technology can benefit a number of industries. What led you to specialize in aviation?
Alex Ivanenko 10:03
It’s easy, we are startup company. So of course, I have investors and I have to bring them idea that we will bring something completely new, we will revolutionize the market industry, and etc. And actually existing for yourself, like based on low temp membrane, it’s, it’s fine for two reasons obligation, there is no solution for aviation. And as I said earlier, so we started to speak with, with different customers, they came to us and say, Alex, give us something so your white paper you published, looks good, give us something. So let’s do feasibility study, we would like to understand more and more and more. So that is why our initial focus was on on aviation industry, because no one has solution. And only HyPoints that we can bring that technology and really accelerate development and enable this market. So that is why our initial focus is here. But of course, we represented the right so we are we kind of plan to start collaboration within marine application. Because actually for I would say for aviation is massive lightweight system. Right? So lightweight fuel cell for marine applications for heavy duty tracks for mining industry is good to have. But it’s good to have not much, but good. And of course, so we are we have a plan to that was collaboration with different different different markets and different players. And actually, we are speaking with guys, but I would like to build first system and validate the system demo flight system with aviation industry. And they can’t and after that, go to other market segments and say this is a HyPoint’s stack. It works in aviation. Can you imagine that? If that work in aviation, we will be definitely working in marine application and in other industries, because your requirements is much lower than for these guys. Yeah, that’s idea.
Paul Rodden 11:59
Excellent. So in the world of zero emission aviation, there seems like a big issue that few are willing to discuss publicly, but I think your company is well suited to provide the solution. So the problem is, I see it is that and you alluded to this earlier that lithium ion batteries can’t store enough energy to produce the required amount for for lift. And the number of batteries required would be ridiculously heavy. And the current quote unquote, standard low temperature fuel cells can’t provide enough power to the aircraft. So what is HyPoint solution to the weight and power balance issue or to ask it a different way? How does HyPoint’s fuel cells solve the weight problem on an aircraft?
Alex Ivanenko 12:45
Yeah, so and Paul, this is a good question. And actually this is a commonly asked question from, from from my partners, investors and customers. And first of all, we there are a few innovations here. The main issue is existing fuel cells. And you should understand that aircraft guys when they understood that hey, we have to work with fuel cell, because Lithium batteries not enough energy, as you said. And that’s absolutely true, we should use something technology which available on the market and they started to integrate low temp membrane fuel cell stacks in in their aircraft. And but the main issue with low temp stack is a balance of bond is very very heavy because it’s acquire very heavy cooling system which usually as much as two times heavier of that fuel cell stack itself. So, we increase the efficiency of cooling because of high temperature membrane will increase temperature of the chemical reaction. So that is why we don’t need to use a lot of like like a standard components of a system like winter coolant, liquid coolant, different types of pumps and etc we can exclude it from from the system design at all. And if you can compare Apple by Apple, you can see that we are more efficient, much more lighter, because we don’t use a lot of components inside. And of course, other how to say there are a few few other innovations is a new system architecture, I will go to the air cooled system that efficiently utilized compressed air for both cooling and oxygen supply. Simply put, we put pressure inside the fuel cell deliver my oxygen is a chemical reaction and that allows us to increase power. And of course, we created a new new bipolar plates which is usually also the barricade is part of fuel cell stack. So we made it from aluminium and that is why our system becomes more lighter, but you should understand of course high temp membrane is not quite new technology. So it was invented by Brian with a more than 20 years ago and the main application before it was in stationary application. Why? Because high temp membrane is operating very very toxic environment. And that is why to kind of say stabilize the fuel cell stack, right and then chemical reaction, you must use very heavy parts of like a graphite, graphite inside. And that is why it’s become very our innovation that we replace graphite by place to aluminium. At the same time we invented and graded highly conductive product, corrosion resistant coating for this aluminium bipolar plates. So, I will say that combination of different types of technologies, so make that happen to him, he’s got to say, to produce and to produce a system and convinced our customers that yes, it’s possible to integrate in our aircraft.
Paul Rodden 15:42
I mean, that really is revolutionary. I mean, even though the the high temperature setup isn’t necessarily that new, what you’ve done to that setup is really revolutionary.
Alex Ivanenko 15:52
That’s true. And I would say, I will say that we are the first company in the world who have done that successfully. And we recently did launch a few stacks, short stacks, mini stacks, and rehabilitated everything, because small cells should Excel stacks, and etc. And right now, we are scanning to single power model, which we expect to get in June, this year, we are really first company in the world to down that. So no one before.
Paul Rodden 16:17
Well, congratulations then? How would you integrate your technology into different aircraft? For example, in order to go from, let’s say, a helicopter to an Airbus? Right? Is it simply a matter of stacking your fuel cells? Or about creating a custom solution with new materials that you would need to test?
Alex Ivanenko 16:38
This is also good question. So our idea is to simplify, simplify approach for each customer. So that is why if you remember, I mentioned just like a couple of minutes ago about single power model 20 kilowatt or 60 kilowatt. Does that make sense? So we are integrating more than one approach, it means that we can achieve necessary power level, just the range together necessary quantities of these power modules. And that is why by an integration and packaging of these single power models into one system, so we collaborate together, wherever they close, really very different goals with our customers like so by the way, in the middle of May, I don’t know when you publish the hydrogen podcast, so we will have one more collaboration meeting was by Piasecki aircraft corporation, they will arrive to our facility in UK. And I’m kidding, of course, but I’m close, I’m real close with John Piasecki, we will close our engineer, their engineering team, our engineering team, in the meeting room for one week, just order them pizza, beer time to time, and the door will be closed until then we create a new package packaging. I’m kidding. But this is I think when engineers work together, they were really close. And like a daily basis, they really create can create a lot of different systems can say different options, how to integrate the system. That is why for HyPoint is important to work with customers, like not just a solution. But it’s a customizable, of course, for time to time depends on customer requirements. But general idea for we are using more than one approach as I said earlier, and scanning that necessary power level is not a big deal for us. That is our statement at the moment.
Paul Rodden 18:26
Awesome. So speaking of testing, I know HyPoint is in the certifications phase of your technology, would you mind discussing the rigorous certification process to commercialization? What does that entail? And have you encountered any challenges while you’re continually evolving your technology?
Alex Ivanenko 18:47
This is again, good question. And again, we are teaming with with our customers to go HyPoint, we adjust the count on the end of the boundary. Right. So we are specifically between electric water and hydrogen storage. So we’re just one of the companies. And based on FAA rules, we don’t need to get a certify some certificate type certificate for our system, we have to get approval. And that is why we’re when we started work with customers. And you should understand that aviation industry doesn’t work like a one time project. I don’t have one time project in our portfolio. So we have like a multistage agreement, three, five years and depends on the stage. We also have pre orders and etc. I actually understand what will happen with the industry next seven years, next 7-9 years. And this is how that industry works. And again, teaming with customers, we are creating certification roadmap. So And last year, we started that certification process with the FAA with one of our customers, because he’s absolutely new FAA and another four doesn’t understand how to get certifiable products, and et cetera, et cetera. That is why again, collaboration with customers with regulators, regulation authorities, To help them but we are currently train them, they train us. And that’s how we’re going to bring that technologies to kind of say certifiable. Next three, five years, this is our plan and actually is not something like unrealistic. So this is what we have we we have bi weekly, bi weekly calls with their engineers, certified engineers, we have right now two engineers in the team who is responsible for certification process. And this is important, we are startup Yes. But my plan my idea to commercialize the product. And I understand that without, without certification, my product will not be commercialized. So that is why I started now certification process to get it in five years to get a commercial product on the market.
Paul Rodden 20:49
Before I jump into the next question, you actually said something that I want to highlight that I do talk about sometimes to people who are a little bit skeptical on hydrogen, you know, if you’re if everyone’s talking about the return time on these investments, why are so many people investing right now, when you’re not really seeing the returns, but you really just kind of mentioned a specific point about that. And that is, you know, you have to apply for certifications and things like that, now, in order to be able to apply your technology later. So that’s, I think, one of the reasons why you see so much news about hydrogen now, and not a whole lot of, you know, action items that are taking place, you know, it’s because this is what’s going on in the background, you know, all of these companies like yourself are having to go through these certification processes to really validate the technology. So I’m really glad you mentioned that, because I think it’s important to highlight to some of the skeptics who are looking at this and saying, you know, I’m not seeing a lot of that, that in product news, right now,
Alex Ivanenko 21:45
These guys can invest in software companies, their return on investment very, very fast. So it’s adjust in less than three months, you can get 2x. But for HyPoint technology, you can invest now in the company, who will be bringing them a couple of billion dollars in five years. So it’s a long term vision. And of course, so there are a lot of enthusiasm, enthusiasts, investors, professional investors who invest company and they understand that this technology, really enabling accelerate market changing, and etc, etc. I put now and we’ll get them, let’s say Congress acts in five, seven years, there’s a good strategy. So but of course, it’s not for everyone, I completely agree, and depends on the level of development of the company and etcetera, etcetera. So different investors that can invest in the companies is the usual process. But who would like to get like a fast profit? Of course, HyPoint is not is not a good deal. I completely accept that. But for some of funds, we will understand the deep tech, but deep is in real deep tech, and it will be when the market?
Paul Rodden 22:50
Yeah, no, I completely agree. So, the next one, I’m sure this is a fun question that all CEOs love to answer. But what separates HyPoint from your competitors? Can you talk about the differences between you and other fuel cell providers? I know, we’ve talked about a lot of the big differences, but in your own words, and, and what what really makes you unique?
Alex Ivanenko 23:13
So first of all, my team, so I don’t know, is it by chance? Or is my personal? I don’t know. So but we really, in the team right now, we invited? I would say that experts. And when I say you should understand that, people. So what’s making a difference in in terms of technology I have already explained. So I’ve worked in big corporations, I know how it was from nine to five. So one hour for one for lunch. Also, sorry, this is a weekend. So we are not working. So we wait. And it says holidays. My team right now working six day, about 12 hours a day. And it’s not because I’m pushing No, no. They really inspired what they’re doing. And every day we deliver some results, and they see hey, by it’s like a it’s like an art for them. You know, they’re really inspired that they are we really doing our hands. And this works. And that is why for engineers, you know, it’s it’s a dream work. You know what I mean? Right? I mean, there’s a really dream to be in that situation. And that is I we provided them I provided them that opportunity to be in the beginning of the company, when you can do by your hands real product. So of course I know that a couple of years HyPoint becomes like a more corporate structure because we can vacillate between the quiet. But right now, it’s like a freedom. You can do everything you want. Just to bring the idea on the table. We review it… looks good. Let’s go. Let’s try. Let’s try this. Like startup environment and our competitors right now. It’s companies whose on the stock exchange market. Yeah, that’s a big difference. That is why we are running free five years ahead of them. So this is this is true so Plug Power. Power Cell Atlantic technologies and others. So they have really become corporations, they have a lot of restrictions on operations, they cannot move so fast as HyPoints right now.
Paul Rodden 25:10
Now, that really is inspiring. And I think it’s important to emphasize the potential of what you are developing. If you don’t mind using a real world example, can you talk about your collaboration with zero avia? You kind of mentioned them before, and what makes that relationship so special.
Alex Ivanenko 25:26
So because Zero Avia was the first company who bring idea with zero co2 emission, electric aircraft and powertrains to the market, and I really happy to work with them. They also well experienced team and Val Miftakhov, he’s a pilot, you understand all issues? Right? So for me, Teaming with zero area, we also get a lot of education, I would say, from them, because when we are speaking with companies like zero avia and Piasecki, so first of all, I’m trying to understand what exactly is their needs, right? So we are trying to speak with them and their their language. So for me, it’s like a training, I tried to be prepared to speak, to start real conversation with big guys, I don’t want to say their names, you know them well, and, of course special that Val and his team started like a ……, right, they started to believe in HyPoint technology. And for me, it’s of course, it’s like a checkbox, oh, this is a really reliable partner we can rely on. So we are very transparent. Were discussing the future development, future improvements, and etc, etc. Usually, when how to say, talented engineers and founders meet each other, right? So they create can create something absolutely new. Because again, this is a bit different environment, not like in from corporate world. So that’s actually how all innovation that you usually do. Right? So usually, usually integrated in the market.
Paul Rodden 26:59
So if we could just pivot for a second and talk about the economics of hydrogen fuel cells in aviation. I know that HyPoint has customers and partnerships, but you guys are still in the development phase, on your way to commercialization. We don’t have to talk about current numbers specifically. But can you give us an overview on the strategy behind future profitability for your company? Basically, what is your roadmap to success?
Alex Ivanenko 27:27
It’s easy. So right now, we are also we are going to say thing, 20-30 years horizon, right. And we are done. We’ve already done estimated already market, potential market signals a few billion dollars that target target addressable market. So when we understand how much we can, we can occupy and that market was a share, share share we can get. So and we just talked about that believe that next 10 years, we can do $1 billion revenue. So and it’s not again, and this is like a pessimistic scenario. So again, if everything you’ll be will be happening, as announced right now, I mean, not only from HyPoint, but also for all airlines from from the market, what we hear, and we will wow, that $1 billion, not a big deal next next 10 years to achieve. And the main in the beginning of our conversation, I said that there are two trends, why hydrogen, climate change, and economic aspects. And of course, so we adjusted and build a few calculations with helicopters. And we see that we can increase efficiency of operation, total cost of ownership, decreased total cost of ownership by people up to 50%. And 25% just using standard price for hydrogen right now, in California is about let’s say, I don’t remember exactly so but it’s about $14 per kilogram, we can do 25% reduction of total cost of ownership. Wow. Just if technology will be in place right now. But based on different types of scenarios there’s last 10 years and this decade we can do with the price of hydrogen will decrease after $1 Let’s say okay, I put in my in our calculation $3 pessimistic again $3 per kilogram and we can do 50% to 50% reduction of total cost of ownership. So that is why as I said earlier, this really motivates airlines companies to integrate that technology in their aircraft because these are relevant is is really money so I We also spoke with our with Piasecki, they did a few different types of calculations. And they demonstrated to to their customers, they Hey guys, if you integrate by 800 hydrogen fuel cell from HyPoint you can get your profit and profitability from one helicopter 2 billion sorry, $2 million, let’s say next five years, that, just at five years, you can save about $5 million $2 million. Sorry, good numbers. Right. So for everyone, and, and it’s interesting, this is a really, really good figures. That is why everybody would like to use hydrogen. That’s it. That’s really true. Yeah.
Paul Rodden 30:17
I mean, that’s really incredible. And I love the direction that you’re taking your company, I really do. One final question. Would you mind giving us your thoughts on the overall future of hydrogen in aviation? When do you think it will really take off sorry, for the pun, it Do you see any challenges in the near future, that the industry will have to overcome?
Alex Ivanenko 30:39
What is the future for hydrogen aviation, well one it will have HyPoint. Im kidding. Im kidding. So, the future of aviation, I just strongly believe that this will be start first commercial operation of hydrogen aircraft in this case, you will see next few years a lot of them applies different companies will present their solution with power trains in new aircraft design, and etc. So, this is what will happen. And and based on my estimation, again, so I’m just talking with a lot of experts in the market. So, I think the real transformation will come in in the middle of 2030s. So that is that what when it will be like a switch, you know, so when there will create a lot of crucial mass and it will be switched completely. So these cases is very, very important as wherever important for us this year, because we move to real hardware stage, and for all companies. So next three, five years also will be very important. So of course, not all companies will be survived. So we have to understand that. But this is the process, right? So we learned with each other, and etcetera. And everybody from this community bring something in that is that future success.
Paul Rodden 31:56
That’s, that’s great. This has been an absolute dream of an interview. Thank you so much for joining me. I particularly enjoyed how the dynamics of your fuel cell system cuts the weight, while dramatically increasing the power. I think that was amazing, too. I really think that will solve the weight and power issues for hydrogen powered aircraft in the future, not just for your airplanes, but also drones. We talked about helicopters, and then even applying that further into ground transportation. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.
Alex Ivanenko 32:31
Both Thank you very much that you invited me it was really pleasant to speak with you today. Hope you were enjoyed yet. But I really. Yeah, thank you very much. I didn’t know perhaps in one year, we will get one more interview and I will show you more in our progress and product. And yeah, as I said earlier for us this year. It’s the most important year for HyPoint.
Paul Rodden 32:56
Thank you again. All right, everyone. If you enjoyed listening to Alex’s views on the hydrogen industry and want to check out his company HyPoint, we highly recommend visiting their website at www.HyPoint.com to learn more. Thanks again. Hope y’all have a great day. Take care. Hey, this is Paul. I hope you liked this podcast. If you did and want to hear more. I’d appreciate it if you would either subscribe to this channel on YouTube, or connect with your favorite platform through my website at www.thehydrogenpodcast.com. Thanks for listening very much. Appreciate it. Have a great day.