Paul Rodden • Season: 2024 • Episode: 355
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Welcome to The Hydrogen Podcast!
Special Interview Series – William Smith / Infinity Fuel Cell and Hydrogen – In this special interview, Paul discusses Infinity Fuel Cell’s groundbreaking projects with NASA and the U.S. Navy, including uncrewed underwater vehicles and lunar fuel cell systems. He explores how their fuel cell technology is revolutionizing power solutions for critical military and space applications. Give it a listen now.
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Paul Rodden
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Transcript:
Paul Rodden 0:00
My name is Paul Rodden, and welcome to the hydrogen podcast. Alright… Welcome back to the hydrogen podcast. I’m your host, Paul Rodden, and today we have the pleasure of welcoming back William Smith, President and CEO of infinity fuel cell and hydrogen, to talk about some of the exciting developments for the company. There have been some major new contracts and the iconic partnership that I’m excited to talk about, Bill, thank you so much for joining us today.
Bill Smith 0:27
Well, thank you, Paul, delighted to be here.
Paul Rodden 0:31
So Bill, let’s dive right in with some big news. Recently, Infinity has announced a major new contract to develop uncrewed underwater vehicles or UUV. Can you tell us more about the scope of this project and what makes it significant?
Bill Smith 0:47
I’ll tell you what I can tell you it is, it is the customer still wants to remain confidential understood. It is a logical evolution of a lot of the work that we have been doing, funded by the Office of Naval Research, and an evolution of that work toward a new generation of commercial, complete products. And I can’t say what we’re doing here, and then this is, I think we’ve been promoting this for a long time, is that we’re now building complete, modular systems, and that’s, that’s what we’re developing, we’re going to be deploying. And this particular customer, I think, has an excellent vehicle that they’re developing, and they’re recognized in the industry for their capability, and it projects to be a capability that is becoming more and more needed, so that this contract comes at a very good time. And I think that we have an excellent solution to this customer’s needs. And I think what the customer is offering to the both to the military and the commercial markets, is a product that fits this developing need. And what we’re talking about are uncrewed underwater vehicles that can be used to leverage the assets that military the navies would want to bring to bear in different parts of the world. And you know, as we all know, unfortunately, the world is becoming a less settled place, and so that there’s more and more need for these products, for these vehicles, to be able to accomplish missions all around the globe.
Paul Rodden 2:17
Infinity is known for its innovation in fuel cell technology. How does your fuel cell solution fit into these UUVs, and what advantage does it offer over traditional power sources?
Bill Smith 2:29
Well, first of all, fuel cells, compared to batteries, offer the ability to separate power generation, which happens in the fuel cell and energy storage, which happens in the oxidizer and reactant tanks. It’s very much like your car so that you you want to go longer, you put on larger tanks. You put in more more fuel and more oxidant. Whereas batteries are combined power and energy storage devices. And if you want to go have longer endurance. You want to go longer, you need to put more and more and more batteries in which may not be optimal for a given mission. In general, the fuel cell solution can be very beneficial for longer and longer emissions, and that seems to be what is being required compared to batteries. Then our fuel cells discriminate compared to other fuel cells in the way that we actually handle the internal operation of water removal when the fuel cell reaction occurs. Of course, hydrogen and oxygen combine to make electricity, but they also produce water at the surface of the cathode, and you have to remove that and for hydrogen air fuel cells where air, air is abundant, you can blow that through there, and you remove it by entrainment hydrogen oxygen fuel cells that are closed, you have it becomes a more difficult problem, and we have a solution that does it passively with in cell base, separation In cell separation of the oxygen oxygen from the water, and prove that out over the past 10 years now, plus funded by a combination of NASA and navy programs.
Paul Rodden 4:09
What challenges do you foresee in scaling up for a project like this? And how does infinity plan to overcome those?
Bill Smith 4:16
Well, we’re fortunate right now, because the projected markets are substantial for this type of product. We have been gradually scaling up over the past couple of years under related programs so that we have the test capabilities in house right now, and I’d say for the next least two to three years, we have the capacity within the two buildings that we now operate in. So we see in that time frame, as the market is developing, we are able to scale up and meet those requirements fairly readily, going to the next generation beyond, say, the three year time frame, we will be probably expanding our physical plant and looking to a larger, dedicated facility.
Paul Rodden 4:58
Then is there a broader market for fuel cell powered UUVs in both military and civilian applications. How do you see that sector evolving?
Bill Smith 5:07
Well, there is a broader market in terms of not just military. Military applications are very important and can drive a lot of the near term need, but there is a long standing need for these types of vehicles, for the oil and gas industry, for pipeline inspections, for cable transmission or transmission, cable inspections and so on. But there’s an emerging need as well for the large number of ocean sided wind turbines, other equipment like that. You know, in the renewable space. So, oddly enough, the advent of large scale use of wind turbines in the ocean requires vehicles to be around them to make sure that they’re safe and maintained and inspected all the time. So that’s another emerging area where vehicles that can stay down longer can provide a benefit to these missions,
Paul Rodden 5:57
Shifting then from under the sea to outer space Infinity has been awarded a significant initial contract for a lunar fuel cell power and electrolyzer system. Can you share some of the details around exciting space project?
Bill Smith 6:12
Sure, sure. Again, this is an outgrowth of years of experience with NASA related systems we currently have, do have a existing NASA program for the fuel cell part of a combined fuel cell electrolyzer system, a regenerative fuel cell system, and that’s been an ongoing program for the past several years, and we just made an initial delivery of equipment to that, and we’re going to be doing more and more testing under that NASA Glenn Research Program. You know what? What’s new is, on the commercial side, we have a secondary path of contracts opening up. You know, we’re at the early stages, I’d say, with this customer, of doing something very similar, looking at ways to provide energy storage on the surface of the moon that is optimizes better than batteries or other alternatives. That is a new contract and a commercial contract that has a secondary pathway to what you’ve already been doing with NASA now for some period of time.
Paul Rodden 7:12
What makes fuel cell technology uniquely suited for space applications, particularly on the lunar surface.
Bill Smith 7:19
Particularly on the lunar surface, the ability to store large amounts of energy as hydrogen and oxygen is very beneficial compared to trying to do with batteries. Again, you run into the limitation batteries have of being combined power and energy storage devices. You may need a few 100 watts or a few kilowatts of power, but when you need it for a two week lunar night, the mass of the batteries can become prohibitive. In fact, there were studies that were done by NASA Glenn Research Center that estimated that the benefit of a regenerative fuel cell just for a single mission could be in the hundreds of millions of dollars compared to equivalent batteries. So it’s that ability to store large amounts of energy very cost effectively, which is the primary advantage for Regenerative fuel cells on the lunar surface. Now, side benefits, depending on how you integrate the system. Of course, if you have a combined fuel cell electrolyzer system, you’re generating hydrogen, but you’re also generating oxygen, so you have a source of life support, oxygen, and in the process, you’re also generating water. So if the loop isn’t completely closed, depending on how you integrate this with a crude habitat, you could find the side benefit of making water and of making oxygen is extremely important and a beneficial trade to the mission.
Paul Rodden 8:40
Can you talk about the partnerships involved in this project, and how infinity is collaborating to achieve success?
Bill Smith 8:47
It’s difficult to talk about any detail about right now with the commercial partners, because we have nondisclosure agreements that say we can’t do that. So we can make people aware of it, but we can’t get any details of those discussions, you know, we can talk about, of course, what we’re doing with NASA and have done with NASA and with the US Navy and both in both areas, we have programs that are continuing. And for instance, as you probably well know, we proved out our fuel cell technology aboard two Blue Origin New Shepard suborbital flights in 2022 and 2023 and you know, we’re continuing to evolve that under NASA programs today. And the same goes true for the oxygen generation system, the electrolyzer. We were funded there by three generations of programs funded by NASA Glenn Research Center to develop specialized high pressure hydrogen and oxygen generation systems. In that case, they were looking at using both gasses for energy storage, but also it can be used to generate just oxygen. If you’re looking at just crude life support missions.
Paul Rodden 9:55
Looking ahead, then do you see this lunar contract as opening doors for future. Space exploration projects. What? What is the long term vision here?
Bill Smith 10:04
Well, the the long term vision really is the same vision that’s shared with NASA the establishment of permanent habitats on the moon, and they’re integrating regenerative fuel cells that are generating hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis and storing it for energy storage, but also for, as I mentioned, the oxygen and life support water use, and that is a long standing NASA objective on the way to Mars, so that the technologies that are intended to be developed for these crude habitats on the moon, you know, have by extension, application to life on Mars as well. And even if you establish, say, nuclear power generation at either site, you still are going to need more local application of power and energy. And so you could the nuclear source could actually be powering electrolyzers to provide the reactants to more deployed locations away from the base.
Paul Rodden 11:06
Now on to a really exciting announcement. William Shatner, a beloved icon in the world of space exploration and sci fi, joined infinity as a brand ambassador and advisory board member. How did this partnership come about?
Bill Smith 11:21
It really was kind of a natural partnership, to tell you the truth. We flew aboard two Blue Origin, New Shepard missions, NS 23 and NS 24 he flew on NS 18 and we were aware of that. You know, he, of course, got a lot of recognition for that mission. And what I found as we were talking to people. We were briefing people on what we were doing and in space and space fuel cells and so on. And I’d say, hey, we, you know, we a great accomplishment. You know, we proved out our technology in a suborbital flight funded by NASA board Blue Origin rocket. And people would say, that’s, that’s really nice, and they didn’t know what I was talking about. When I would say that William Shatner is the same. It was the same rocket as William Shatner flew on. Then they recognized it. So I realized that as much as those of us in the fuel cell and hydrogen community are around it all the time, and we you know, we can recognize achievements in different areas, and we recognize who’s doing what the rest of the world has no idea what we’re doing. All right, I go to an open meeting, and I had a conference for another for another reason. I, in fact, I was at one, one event. My wife was involved in the art world, and I was at a museum event and talking to people that were, you know, very familiar with, you know, what’s going on in the world. And I’d mentioned hydrogen, I’d mentioned fuel cells, and they had no idea what I was doing. Yeah, no idea what hydrogen was about. They had no idea what our whole industry is really up to, even though, you know, we all believe that we’re having a major impact on improving the future of the world. So what I was looking for was a way to really get the message out there to the world. So we also happen to have a connection to the film industry. So we had them contact Mr. Shatner’s agent and get the conversation going. And he was very interested, because he was quite moved by his mission that he flew on. He was quite moved by the experience of looking back on the planet and realizing how fragile this world is and how empty the rest of the spaces around us, and that he just felt moved to try to do things in the rest of his time on earth, to help advance, advance the quality of the world, advance the future of the world, make it better for the children, grandchildren of us all. And he realized that hydrogen has an important role to play in that and so he was very taken with what we’re doing. That mission of ours fit in with that mission of his right now. So it came about really, very naturally. The connection was the Blue Origin New Shepard flights that he flew on and our test equipment flew on.
Paul Rodden 13:55
What role do you see Mr. Shatner playing as both a brand ambassador and advisor for infinity?
Bill Smith 14:01
The role I see him playing is to really raise the awareness of not only what this company is doing, which is very important as we seek to grow and we seek investment and so on, but probably more importantly, is to educate the world in general, to raise awareness of hydrogen, of fuel cells and how important it is to decarbonization of our planet. And I can see him, in a probably in a practical sense, helping us with press announcements, videos and so on as we develop tools to communicate again, what we are doing, but also what the industry is doing. So I think there’ll be a number of different channels that you’ll see him coming out as we communicate these messages to the rest of the world.
Paul Rodden 14:47
Given his immense influence in public persona, how does infinity plan to leverage William Shatner’s involvement to further your mission and reach is it more? Is there more space travel in his future?
Bill Smith 14:58
I. I doubt it. Never say never. You know he is super active. Still, you look at his schedule, you know he is going to live events all around the country, and in fact, in December, he and Neil deGrasse Tyson are the featured leads of a cruise to the Antarctic in December. So he isn’t slowing down one bit, so I would think it’s unlikely, but I wouldn’t underestimate him either.
Paul Rodden 15:24
This partnership certainly is grabbing attention. How do you envision Mr. Shatner’s presence impacting public perception and investor interest in infinity?
Bill Smith 15:34
Well, I think he, you know the characters he’s played, of course, you know from Star Trek obviously have a connection to the space technologies that we’re developing, and then his recent interest in the overall benefit of the to the planet is another, another connection there. So, you know, I see that’s kind of the major thrust of what, where we see that, you know, we’ll be working together to benefit the company and to raise awareness.
Paul Rodden 16:03
So speaking of investors, in addition to these big announcements, Infinity is also working on raising funds through a series C crowdfunding campaign. Right.. Could you give our listeners an overview of what this funding round is aimed at achieving?
Bill Smith 16:16
What this funding round is aimed at achieving is to helping commercialize and productionize the technologies that we have been developing, funded under NASA and military contracts. Through those contracts, we have proven out the core technologies, we’ve proven out prototype systems, and now we’ve even started qualification of those systems for some very demanding mission applications. We’re at the stage where we’re going from development to prototype production and then production, so that the funds that we’re looking at raising right now are designed to assist in doing that, make that transition from technologies and prototypes to products, and in this industry, as you well know, it’s a capital intensive industry, and you need the financial resources to be able to do the designs, the development and the testing that supports that product in the field.
Paul Rodden 17:15
What progress has infinity made so far in this series C round, and what’s the timeline for completing it?
Bill Smith 17:21
Our goal in this regulation C round has been to raise approximately $5 million and we’ve made some very good progress on that. We’re closing in on about 2 million raised, and we’re looking at achieving probably doubling that, and hopefully the whole 5 million by October 25 and that’s our target right now we will be closing the round, October 25 so anybody that may be interested in, you know, joining us on our mission, that’s the time frame that you’ll be able to do it through this regulation C offering.
Paul Rodden 17:54
What can potential investors expect in terms of returns or milestones from infinity in the next 12 to 18 months, and I think it’s this question probably needs a disclaimer added that this is not official financial advice. All investment decisions should obviously be made after conducting your own research or consulting with a licensed financial advisor.
Bill Smith 18:15
Yeah, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t pretend to project what financial returns would be, I can project what our goals and objectives would be, and that is to define program milestones, and I can’t always share exactly what they are on the current programs that we have, and we’re well on the way to doing that, and also to achieve internal milestones on our product development and productionization efforts, so that you’ll probably see us talking about as we achieve a technical milestone, a test milestone, a design milestone, a product delivery. And you’re seeing those types of activities, you know, those are the things to be watching for our progress, and we are in the middle of doing that.
Paul Rodden 18:57
So then, for anyone interested in supporting this round. What should they know about infinity’s future prospects, and why is right now the time to invest?
Bill Smith 19:07
Well, right now is the time to invest. Is because right now, as we’re making that transition, as we develop mature product lines, the value of the company should increase reflecting the maturity of that product and the maturity of the company. But again, you know, past progress is never a prediction of future success. That’s what we’re planning to do.
Paul Rodden 19:26
Thank you so much for sharing all these exciting updates with us, from uncrewed underwater vehicles to lunar fuel cells. Of course. William Shatner joining as, brand ambassador. I think it’s clear that infinity fuel cell and hydrogen is on an extraordinary journey.
Bill Smith 19:41
It is exciting. It is an extremely exciting time to be here, and I think, extremely rewarding for the team that we have working here. I would say that we have a world class team. I just come to work every day and admire the capability of the folks that are here with an experience range from fairly new. To, you know, deep experience. It’s just a terrific team, and it and the missions that they’ve done, like I it’s so rewarding to, you know, watch the accomplishments of a, say, a young team of engineers successfully launching a product to space on a suborbital flight. And the that accomplishment is just amazing, and to see the reward, the achievement for that team and what they did, and similarly, on the other work that we’re doing right now for underwater, obviously, working underwater will never be as spectacular as a space launch, but everybody knows how important it is. And you know, seeing the feedback from the customers with our team and as they they make progress, is just thrilling to watch.
Paul Rodden 20:45
For our listeners. I want to highlight that the Series C crowdfunding campaign is coming to a close soon. Like you said, october 25 Correct. You’re interested in being part of infinity’s groundbreaking future. You can check out more details at www.infinityfuel.com. Bill, thanks again for your time. I’m sure we’ll all be hearing much, much more from infinity fuel cell and hydrogen in the future.
Bill Smith 21:07
Well, thank you, Paul. Very nice to be here.
Paul Rodden 21:09
And with that, thank you for listening to the hydrogen podcast. Be sure to subscribe for more insights into the hydrogen industry. Hey, this is Paul. I hope you liked this podcast. If you did and want to hear more, I’d appreciate it if you would either subscribe to this channel on YouTube or connect with your favorite platform through my website at www.thehydrogenpodcast.com. Thanks for listening. I very much appreciate it. Have a great day.
